Reloadable 25 foot cartridge?

[MovieStuff]

I've been thinking about the smaller load cartridges and was curious what people thought about have a shorter load that is based on a reel to reel design. The reason I ask is for two reasons:

1) It's a simpler design than the co-axle design that Kodak uses.

2) It is my understanding that Kodak will eventually be going to a polyester base on their film stocks. So while an initial reloadable cartridge would probably on handle about 25 feet, future polyester based film stocks would allow for much longer runs since they're thinner than Kodak's current stocks.

If you guys think this is workable, I really believe I could create something like this fairly easily. I am still doing some brain work on the 200 foot mag idea, but not everyone could use those. The 50 foot cartridge would be universal.

So would you be willing to go to a shorter run to be able to "roll your own"?

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[StopMoWorks]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MovieStuff:
I've been thinking about the smaller load cartridges......that is based on a reel to reel design.....a simpler design than the co-axle design that Kodak uses.....So would you be willing to go to a shorter run to be able to "roll your own"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

***YES!**** So, you would actually design/engineer a modification to existing super8 50 ft cartridge? For me, 25 ft. in animation work is a lot...of course, for live action inserts, I would have to re-think my overall shots/scenes and general story....quicker cuts, snappier pace....forcing me to be more creative/resourcful with limitations (i'm use to it).

How would this work? We buy the co-axial 50ft cartridges....open in dark room & reload into the 25 ft reloadable? What about the film processing? Just reverse the above and load back into 50ft cartridge? I assume the reloadable option....is to insure one has an absolutely reliable working cartridge? To me, much of I have done, is home brew type stuff anyway and I'm guessing many out here are kind of do-it-yourselfer types.....the nature of Super 8 medium. The extra step of reloading/unloading would not bother me at all.

Lionel

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[dogstarman]

No, I agree. I have no intention of petitioning Kodak to do anything. My point is, they are overlooking future, long term sales in favor of their current bottom line. Let me explain:

Kodak is very fond of pointing out on their website that "many of todays top filmmakers cut their teeth with S8 and regular 8 film and cameras..." blah, blah blah. And this continues to be true. HOWEVER, if Kodak is unwilling to support what is, lets face it, the ONLY gauge that many of us can afford to work with in the here and now, will it be any wonder if 30 years from now NOBODY is using film because the decided video was easier, cheaper and THE PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING SELLING FILMSTOCK DIDN'T SEEM TOGIVE A DAMN? Call me an asshole, but if Kodak isn't willing to break even or even (gasp) lose a little money on something like super 8, there isn't going to be anybody buying billlions of feet 35mm stock 30 years from now, because they will have never learned to use film, and frankly, won't know or care that it is a zillion time better than even the best video format.

More to the point, they are also losing out to people like Super8 Sound/ Pro8mm. I mean, come on: these people BUY the stuff from Kodak in the first place. I mean, granted, they jack the price WAY up, but come on. They are at least making a living at it and probably a healthy profit as well. Why is Kodak ignoring this? They are letting people RESELL their own product at a HUGE price increase. Does that make sense? I mean, if GM were building a car, and I bought 1,000 of them, put spoilers on them, painted them some weird color, and resold them at five or six times the retail price, don't you think GM would go "Hey, wait a minute, how come we're not doing that...?"

I don't know... to me, it looks like Kodak is being run by a bunch of bean counters who are completely out of touch with the people buying their products. As you said, Kodak will sell anything for the right price. I just don't understand why they make it so difficult to sell anything...


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[dogstarman]

And as far as your idea goes, Roger:

What if we could pursuade them to just do a run of 16mm perfed for DS8? Then, we could slit down the stock if we wanted to reload it into mags/ cartridges?

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogstarman:

More to the point, they are also losing out to people like Super8 Sound/ Pro8mm. I mean, come on: these people BUY the stuff from Kodak in the first place. I mean, granted, they jack the price WAY up, but come on. They are at least making a living at it and probably a healthy profit as well.
Why is Kodak ignoring this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just answered you own question. Kodak knowingly sells a lot of this stuff to Pro8mm. NOT a reel here in Demoines or a reel there in Kankake and another occasional reel way over there in Okefonoke. Pro8mm buys this stuff in BULK; both 35mm for splitting as well as some super 8 as a pass though sale. Dealing with Pro8mm is good business; quick and easy and profitable. As my daddy used to say,"You can sell a million pencils on the street corner for a buck a piece or spend you life trying to sell a single pencil for a million bucks."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogstarman:

They are letting people RESELL their own product at a HUGE price increase. Does that make sense? I mean, if GM were building a car, and I bought 1,000 of them, put spoilers on them, painted them some weird color, and resold them at five or six times the retail price, don't you think GM would go "Hey, wait a minute, how come we're not doing that...?"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, down here in Houston, there are dozens of specialty car lots that do that very thing! Happens all the time, dude. All the time. What makes a car worth the original amount, anyway? Hell, back in the mid seventies, you could buy a fully loaded mid sized family car for about $3,500. Now that same care costs ten times that much. We don't make ten times as much, but the cost is now ten times more, none the less. So who's marking up the product to begin with?

Ever buy 35mm color print film at a gas station in a tourist area? $8.00 a roll (and probably out of date). You can go to the drug store and buy a four pack for the same $8.00. So Kodak is very much aware of the mark up and expects it.

However, I think that is a good sign, actually, that Kodak will predictably follow the path of least resistance. If we can show Kodak that it can expand its customer base AND reduce its manufacturing costs at the same time, then maybe we'll get somewhere.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited November 24, 2001).]

[dogstarman]

I dunno... I was thinking about maybe trying the Russian reloadables, and even at 50' length, I'm thinking "Well, I'd have to buy 10-15 of these things and be loading up 15 cartridges with slit-down DS8 every night..." if I were going to use it for anything serious...

25' would mean TWICE as many cartridges and TWICE as many to load... uggg...



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[MovieStuff]

Well, one of the things that has to be worked out is setting up a practical channel for buying super 8 stock on daylight spools or even cores. I know that Kodak will sell most anything to anyone for the right price. What I think they need to understand is that it could be a win-win situation. They might be more inclined to expand their line of super 8 stocks if all they had to do was stick them on daylight reels. My idea is to get super 8 daylight reels (if there is such a thing) and use a lathe to turn them down to smaller sizes such as 25 foot or 50 foot.

Anyway, there are a variety of ways to approach the problem, but I was curious what the interest would be in simply trading a shorter load for a real metal pressure plate and unliminted backwind capability.

My idea is that you would send them the film in a can, just like with regular 8mm or 16mm. I think for Kodak to consider super 8 less of a hassle, then we have to THINK of ways to make it less of a hassle for Kodak while, at the same time, increase the options it gives the users both in terms of available (or continued) emmulsions as well as some mechanical advantages.

Rather than send petitions demanding Kodak do this or that, we need to say,"Hey, here is an idea that will make production cost less for you and will help us as film makers, as well." Cartridging is a REAL hassle for the very reasons that have some to light, recently, about the occasional bad run of some units. If all Kodak has to do is run the stuff off onto reels, then life is MUCH nicer for them and they might be inclined to do additioanl things that, otherwise, would be considered just another demand from a bunch of never satisfied film geeks (myself included, here).

We have to realize not just what is good for us as film makers, but, what is also practical for Kodak as a manufacturer. They may tolerate a product line that is self suffecient even if it doesn't actually MAKE money, but when it starts losing money, that's the whole ball game.

Time for a pre-emtive strike before Kodak starts looking for reasons just to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[Matt Pacini]

Roger, the 200ft cartridge idea is cool.
The 25ft I wouldn't have any use for. (50 footers are bad enough!).

In fact, why not 400 footers?

Are there any technical reasons why that would be a bad idea? Because it would mean half the loading time, etc.

They would be smaller than anything 16mm cameras use, and 400 foot would just be so amazing.

However, the main problem I see with buying Super 8 in long lengths, is the processing.
If we got 200 or 400 feet of Kodachrome, & just send it off to Switzerland, are they going to be able to process it? Are their machines now set up just to handle the 50 footers?

Matt Pacini

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt Pacini:

In fact, why not 400 footers?
Are there any technical reasons why that would be a bad idea?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None that I can see. As I indicated before, I did a modification to a guy's Fujica ZC1000 long ago to handle 400 foot loads and he just ordered bulk film from Kodak and sent it in for processing in a can.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt Pacini:

However, the main problem I see with buying Super 8 in long lengths, is the processing.
If we got 200 or 400 feet of Kodachrome, & just send it off to Switzerland, are they going to be able to process it? Are their machines now set up just to handle the 50 footers?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you find reloading every 50 feet by just popping in a daylight cartridge is a total hassle, imagine how lab workers must groan when faced with taking each of those same roles and dealing with them in the dark.

Having done time in a lab, I can tell you that there is nothing "easy" about farting around with dozens and dozens of 50 rolls that have to be cracked open like walnuts. Talk about a debris issue!

Nothing would make Kodak's lifer easier or the life of processors easier than longer rolls that do away with cartridges. Ask any lab which they prefer to deal with: cartridges or cores and they'll all shout "cores!". Not only do they have to deal with the debris and potential film damage issue of unloading, but they have to dispose of the carcuses as well. That costs money which gets passed on to you and me in terms of developing costs, just as manufacturing and loading the damned cartridges costs money which you and I pay when we buy the film.

Again, anything we can do to make Kodak's maunfacturing life easier is going to help the situation. I think they would LOVE to be able to just roll stuff off on a core and ship it out. I've got some calls into them but haven't talked to anyone, yet. I'll keep on it.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited November 25, 2001).]

[StopMoWorks]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MovieStuff:
Anyway, there are a variety of ways to approach the problem, but I was curious what the interest would be in simply trading a shorter load for a real metal pressure plate and unliminted backwind capability.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even a more robust pressure plate.... metal?! Unlimited backwind too?! Good for in-camera special effects and animation stuff!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MovieStuff:
Kodak knowingly sells a lot of this stuff to Pro8mm. NOT a reel here in Demoines or a reel there in Kankake and another occasional reel way over there in Okefonoke. Pro8mm buys this stuff in BULK; both 35mm for splitting as well as some super 8 as a pass though sale. Dealing with Pro8mm is good business; quick and easy and profitable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Roger, with your Sup8-Load-O-Matic cartridge you would be another "channel" of sorts (kind of like Pro8mm)so Kodak can sell Super8 stock in another packaged form (not just in cartridges)for those who want to reload & purchase Super8 in bulk (hopefully better price break).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MovieStuff:
However, I think that is a good sign, actually, that Kodak will predictably follow the path of least resistance. If we can show Kodak that it can expand its customer base AND reduce its manufacturing costs at the same time, then maybe we'll get somewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems like, one could contact Kodak's Super8 division and bounce this idea off them (listening Roger?)....a nice professional presentation with some design concepts of a reloadable Super8 cartridge (of course, prototype reloadable cartridges would have to go through R&D / tests)

I guess, upon Kodak's blessing, they would notify Switzerland (where they process K-40), so that they should accept our non-cartridged Super 8 film.I wonder if Dwaynes would do the same? Just thought of another thing.....we might not get a price break on processing 25 feet? Doesn't Dwayne charge about $9.00 or so, per 50 foot roll? Unless one wants to splice together two, 25 feet lengths of exposed film. (can that be done in darkroom?)

Lot's of things that have to be considered or worked out. Still, a reloadable Super8 cartridge (universal application) sounds pretty innovative and finally, a new & useful accessory/option for die-hard super8 enthusiasts/practitioners.
Lionel






[This message has been edited by StopMoWorks (edited November 25, 2001).]